Tranny Chaser….really?

Tranny Chaser….really?

What is it about transwomen who rail against the tranny chaser. To me, it’s hypocritical. I mean, how does it feel, transgender women, when someone calls you “sir” on the street or in a store? Nevermind, I know how it feels, because my trans friends have told me.

We’re going to repeat this over and over: the men you shame by calling them names are going through a transition similar to your own.  Just as you likely had to come to grips with your own identity, these men – YOUR ALLIES – are going through a transformation too.

A transformation that, for many, still has them in the closet.

Remember when you used to try on clothes in the dark or in the privacy of your room, hidden from other people’s eyes? Remember when you used to hide or explain away remnants of nail polish on your fingers? In the same way, early stage transamorous men are going through similar stages when they experiment with you. They are testing the waters. And frankly those men have made it pretty far: at least they’re at the point of interacting with the person they desire.

Sure there may be boys out there who seek a fling, but it’s much more likely, everyone who expresses interest in you is doing so because they are interested at one level or another and that interest would build if society wasn’t constantly trying to stamp it out. “Society” includes you.

Your allies, the trans-attracted men out there, need your help as much as you need theirs…and yes, you do need them because – and you really need to get this: any man who is interested in you is transamorous by definition. That means in the course of trying to accept who they are they eventually help create a society that accepts who you are.

So help them out. Consider being more compassionate to their transition. Here are some tips to handling it lovely ladies:

  • Offer to talk about it straight up. Don’t sweep your feelings or the guy’s feelings under the carpet. If you see him acting nervous, stop taking it personal* and realize his nervousness is ABOUT HIM. Not you.
  • Ask him about it, ask him what he’s feeling. Have a serious conversation about it without making him wrong or shaming him. Control your knee-jerk reaction to play the victim role.
  • Listen to what he says, then express some empathy. Tell him a story about your own transition. It shows him you get what he’s going through.
  • Ask him if he can identify the thought that has him feeling this way. Ask him if he can think of other thoughts that could trigger other emotional responses other than nervousness, apprehension, fear or shame.
  • If you simply can’t deal with your own emotional reaction to someone who MATCHES YOUR STORY and is behaving in a way that triggers you, then it’s better than you figure your own securities (your stories) out first. For you’re not doing anyone any favors creating drama. You’re especially not helping yourself.

Your freedom as a transgender woman is fortified when you can accept that the men who are interested in you are just as deserving of respect for their transition as you are of yours. There are no tranny chasers. There are only men who are interested – often romantically – in people like you.

*Need some help with that? Contact me.

27 comments on “Tranny Chaser….really?
  1. Ty says:

    Any so called ‘tranny chaser’ is a bisexual. Period. End of discussion. No straight person is going to want to date anyone who is a trans whatever. It does not make sense. If someone is transitioning from one gender to another, their chromosomes and genetic makeup is never gonna change regardless of surgery and/or hormones. They will always have parts and aspects of themselves that are unmodifiable and attributed to their birth sex. Not to mention the previous history of living in one’s birth gender that might make some cringe at the thought of it. And lying about the past will make matters worse. It is only delusional to think that every straight person will accept it but the reality is, they won’t. Anyone who is a ‘tranny chaser’ or a trans, yoyu better be honest and upfront. I don’t have anything against people like that but when people are dishonest then that is when the problem starts.

    • Perry Gruber says:

      It makes total sense if you can broaden your thinking to include the possibility that something precedes “genetics”. Based on what you wrote, you probably will not accept that. And that’s ok. But there are several men who have come on our show now who feel nothing for men and attraction to transgender women. You may think it’s the end of discussion, but the discussion actually continues.

      • Brooklyn says:

        Looking at it from the other way around: Gay Men are not attracted to Trans Women. At all. I know thousands of Gay Men and not one of them has ever hit on me. But plenty of them have been with Trans MEN! LOL I get hit on every day by straight men. I would never say ALL straight men are attracted to Trans Women, but plenty are. Look at the sales of ‘Tranny Porn’ – astronomical! We are beautiful and we are sexy.
        I, for one, am always up front about being Trans. And so are my sisters. I think it is fair. But I think the ‘lying tranny’ trope is an exaggeration. We are just trying to live our lives. We are NOT out to fool anyone.We don’t have to go out and fool anyone, the men are hitting in US.
        And people need to remember, women are lied to by straight men all the time! But somehow, that is part of the game and OK.
        PS – the Bisexual dudes I know don’t like Trans women much. They prefer Cis women and Cis men.

        • Perry Gruber says:

          Preach girl!

          There is so much evidence that counters Ty’s response. Really? Are you saying that every guy who is consuming trans porn is bi? OR Gay? That’s just crazy talk! These are straight men. Here’s a great litmus test. Put an attractive transgender woman in a bar filled with straight men. Assume the men don’t know she’s trans. Guess what? They’ll hit on her…..if they discover the woman is trans, SOME of them will choose not to go farther. But some number of THOSE guys are saying “no” because they are conditioned by social stigma to abhor…..wait for it….not this woman, but the feelings they’re having about her! The other men may legitimately not be interested in her because she’s trans…we all have preferences. But the majority of those men – those attracted and shamed about their real feelings and the guys who are interested in her because she’s f-ing attractive are STRAIGHT. Period. That’s why they found her attractive: because she is! LOL

          • Brooklyn says:

            That has been my experience! Sure, some men have walked away after I told them I was Trans, but most still wanted to have sex, but ‘no one can know’. It’s not about who wants to have sex with us – so many, many men are attracted to Trans women; it’s about who has heart to admit it to themselves and to their friends and family. And, NOT being Gay, you guys have zero skills to handle the homophobia that will be thrown your way. It is NOT easy, but we appreciate those of you who step up to the plate. I don’t have a problem with Bisexuality. I am attracted to some butch females, so I used to say I was ‘very slightly’ Bi, but people still thought that meant I was attracted to all women and it made it very awkward to turn down straight girls who hit on me.

          • Perry Gruber says:

            It’s nice getting to hear more about your story Brooklyn. I wonder….would you like to be on our show? If I’ve asked that before and you declined…sorry! I’m always looking for interesting guests and you sound like you have some great stories!

  2. mahatmapoe says:

    Perry , I think it’s wonderful your willing to invest all of this energy into building a cultural bridge between cis men and trans women however I strongly suggest u redirect it towards those men not us women we do not need a life coach on how to develop intimacy with the men that do not wish to know us beyond the physical ; there were quite a lot of ” if that is the story you tell yourself” in your reply to me and I honestly have to say that if u are saying that in response to me sharing authentic life experiences with the spiritually vacant men most transwomen have to encounter in order to learn the ropes . You have much to learn and it’s not the stories we tell ourselves it’s the stories we’re told and yes we have the autonomy to dismiss them but there are so many other things we are constantly filtering throughout our lives ; who r u to offer such advise without walking in any of our shoes you are disturbingly condescending and delusional even making an attempt to diagnose me or any of us .. and last but not least

    “But what I think you’re really wanting is financial assistance with your process, first and foremost. That’s fine, but again, we have to examine the stories behind the ask: There seems to be a story there that is keeping you from meeting a trans attracted guy who will help you with your transition. You can have all you want. All of it. But you have to tell yourself different stories
    Oti”

    JUST BECAUSE I said I was poor doesn’t mean I’m looking for a man to pay or to assist me with anything what kind of bullshit is that to say to someone in general I am just f I said I was poor doesn’t mean I’m looking for a man to pay or to assist me with anything what kind of bullshit is that to say to someone in generalWho are you and who gave you the podium to speak to transform it this way advise the trans attractive man to do better to listen more into stop advising women to do anything you all think you don’t perpetuate sexism and transmisogyny all because you’re attracted to us Think again your response to me was completely left filled with many assumptions much like the one above please stop with whatever you think you are doing for us because it is a disservice to the transit checked man who could learn more from you I guess challenge the advice of them since we are already doing it

    • Perry Gruber says:

      Hmm. I was confused at the name attached to this comment, until I read the email address this is coming from. It would be great if you’d use your name. But remaining anonymous is cool too.

      Wow, it seems you have been triggered by me sharing my opinion. That’s unfortunate (for you) because in a state of being triggered it’s really hard to hear. My opinion isn’t always accurate. I am, after all human. I wonder though: if the opinion I shared was inaccurate, why are you apparently so upset about it?

      It’s funny you think I’m offering “life coaching” to transgender women or even trans attracted men. That’s not what I’m doing. What I am doing is responding to a call I feel inside to offer something of service and of value. If you don’t think there is value here, then you don’t have to consume it. It’s just that plain and simple. The cool thing about life experience is I answer to no one. And neither do you or anyone else. So there’s no reason for me to answer your “who are you tos” because you have no authority over me.

      If a person is not ready for what I have to offer, they have an easy, powerful choice: don’t consume it. That includes you.

      Now. If you’re interested to read on, I offer the following:

      I understand and agree with you: there are stories you are told. However, if you accept those stories, those stories become yours. So it is accurate to say “your stories” because the stories you take on become yours. But there are also stories you (and everyone) make up. Some of these are “associated” with those you take on, others come from direct life experience, which form a constellation of stories, making it difficult to distinguish one set from the other.

      Finally, the reactions you’re having to my response to your comments are exactly the things I’m pointing to in all my comments and my content generally. To have such negative response illustrates how powerful one’s interpretations (stories) are. Interestingly, the men who consume my content don’t have these kinds of reactions. It would seem then that I am spot on regarding offering this valuable information to both the men and women. As an anecdotal aside, one transgender woman specifically, has received so much value from this content, she has become a partner in the work. Another had too, but we had to part ways due to (business) conflict of interest issues only.

      I will therefore “strongly” ignore your assertions about what I should do with my focus. But I will none the less thank you for your comments.

  3. Brooklyn says:

    Thank you Perry for sharing your story. Trans Attracted Men have accepted, even embraced, their Trans attraction. I love you guys. There are some ‘chasers’ who will one day come to grips with their attractions and proudly enter into a public relationship with a Trans woman. There are all sorts of other men who find us sexually desirable but socially unacceptable, and refuse to grow. Like a white man with a ‘quadroon’ mistress a century ago, or a gentleman partaking of a courtesan’s favors. Trans women are trying to come out of that demimonde and most of us are very thankful that you and your brothers are joining us in the light.

    • Perry Gruber says:

      Spot on “Brooklyn”. There will always be men who remain in the shadows. Our position on them is – don’t want to meet those guys? Then tell stories about the guys you do want.

      We advocate for every transgender woman and every trans attracted man having the cis-trans relationship of their dreams. No exceptions. That’s what we’re here to help everyone get: their dreams. But they can’t have that while they focus on something other than that. Thanks for your lovely comment.

  4. cis lesbian sick of cishet men's nonsense says:

    This article is so patronizing…why do cishet men care so much more about their hurt feelings than they do about “hmm, why might this trans woman think I’m fetishizing her? maybe I should examine my behavior and see if talking about her as if she’s just “an experiment” I’m trying out, and comparing my attraction to trans woman to transitioning is actually very transphobic.” It’s not fun when trans women are automatically suspicious of you as a cis person (especially if you’re one who’s been involved with several trans women), but there’s a REASON FOR THAT, and the reason is that trans women need to have their guard up because of how often they’re abused by people who fetishize them. I implore you and other ~trans-attracted~ cishet men to pull your heads out of your asses and examine your own behavior/find out how you can let trans women know that you’re not just fetishizing them (and if you are fetishizing them, fucking stop it) so that they can feel safer around you/other cis people. Being called a tranny chaser is nowhere near as bad as being called tranny/shemale/other transmisogynistic slurs. Instead of bitching to trans women about your hurt feelings, educate other cishet men on why fetishizing trans women is harmful and stigmatizing.

    • Perry Gruber says:

      Wow. You’ve completely missed the point of this post. Amazing. Instead you’ve taken a moment to simply prove the point of it. There is no comparison going on between what people feel. It’s completely pointless to compare one’s pain to another. BTW, how do you know how a guy feels? You aren’t one.

      We do know this: for all the vilification people like you level on men such as these, they continue to love these women. It may not be a kind of demonstration you expect, but again, this isn’t about you.

      Somewhere in there I know there is a capacity for you to simply love instead of being so judgmental. It certainly would alter many people’s experiences. Including your own.

      • Same Cis Lesbian says:

        My fiancée is a trans woman, so I’m not sure why you’re assuming I have something against cis people – men or otherwise – who are attracted to trans women. You claim “there is no comparison going on between what people feel” yet you literally wrote “We’re going to repeat this over and over: the men you shame by calling them names are going through a transition similar to your own.” Cishet men saying they’re into trans women aren’t “transitioning.” My problem isn’t with men who are attracted to trans women, it’s specifically with 1) men who fetishize trans women, and/or 2) men who whine about being called “tranny chasers” by trans women, instead of trying to figure out WHY they’re being called that. In my experience, trans women tend to reserve that term for people who fetishize them, whereas cis people tend to call anyone involved with a trans woman – regardless of how they see said trans woman – a tranny chaser. Why complain to trans women instead of going after the cis people who perpetuate transphobia/stigmatize relationships with trans people?

        • Perry Gruber says:

          Sorry this is so long, but I hope you read it all. It’s good stuff, I promise. 🙂

          Firstly, congratulations on your pending marriage. That’s awesome. Second, thanks for continuing the conversation instead of doing a “drive by”. I appreciate that. Deeper conversations are so important in this area because of the potential for greater understanding.

          I appreciate too the point you’re making regarding my first reply to you. Let’s quote the whole thing though: “There is no comparison going on between what people feel“. It’s completely pointless to compare one’s pain to another.” The quote you took from the blog is accurate, but it’s not comparing feelings, it’s comparing processes. I can see though how you might see that quote differently.

          So about “transition”: You can deny all you want that these men aren’t “transitioning”, but I can assure you your (no offense meant here) statements are as ignorant (as in “lacking education or awareness in” not as in “stupid”) as people who claim (wrongly and ignorantly) that transgender women aren’t women. It’s a major blind spot in the transgender community and a major point of this post, which argues that, in your blindness, you’re casting aside a major ally.

          I had a fantastic conversation last week with Diana Tourjee, a journalist who writes for Vice and who happens to be trans. She gets this point and, quoting her now “has great compassion for transamorous men.” She agrees – and even says it more passionately if you talk to her – that transamorous men, when they are out in greater numbers, will be “tremendous allies who benefit the transgender community”. Of course I totally agree with her.

          Diana isn’t the only one who has this view. There are many transgender women – including my two hosts on our shows – who aren’t blind like some transgender women, and lesbians who apparently have a “cishetphobia” and, immersed in that story can’t see what is obvious to those who don’t share in that story. As I’ve written before and mentioned in our shows, there are MANY men, including 40 in a private Facebook group, who all describe the same steps of transition they went through on their way to becoming trans attractive/transamorous/supportive/advocates like myself. You can deny it all you want, but all you’re doing is showing your ignorance, just as transphobic people do when they claim being transgender is a disease and that transgender women are men.

          Here’s an interesting quote from a guy, David, who wrote me just two days ago:

          Perry, Thank you for this site. Engaging, informative, affirming. Exceptionally valuable! I’m not ready to exit my closet or tell my story, yet. But, I feel comforted that I’m not alone and have a place to turn. Thank you for being here. I cried buckets, for days, when I found this place and 30 years of fear, anxiety, secrecy, hiding, self judgment and shame finally had an avenue of release

          If that is not an expression of relief from pain, then what is it??? Doesn’t it sound like the same process-experience transgender people have when they find resources which normalize and legitimize their very personal and intense experience in early transition???

          Here’s another one from Michael:

          I am grateful for internet resources such as yours, because although I had talked to certain friends and therapists for many years about this attraction, people had given me well-meaning, but ultimately damaging advice, essentially fetishizing and marginalizing the attraction. One article in particular (I wish I could remember what it was!) highlighted that when we treat attracted to trans people as a paraphilia, it implies that men who are attracted to trans women are either 1) closeted gay (which made no sense to me) or 2) have something wrong with them, which means that trans women are implicitly unloveable! That hit me really hard and made me realize that these views are extremely destructive both to cis people like myself and to trans people. Once I accepted that my sexuality was OK and that it could be expressed in a healthy & romantic way, I felt years of shame and stress melt away. It has been one of the most powerful and freeing experiences of my life. I’ve started to connect to the trans and queer communities and have befriended a couple of trans people, and been on a few normal dates with trans women, although online dating hasn’t really been ideal so far….I really appreciate what you’re doing and hope to connect at some point. I’ve considered putting myself out there more online/ perhaps creating some videos or similar content, and your website is inspiring me in such a way. Perhaps I can help others avoid the years of suffering I went through.

          Now, you write:

          My problem isn’t with men who are attracted to trans women, it’s specifically with 1) men who fetishize trans women, and/or 2) men who whine about being called “tranny chasers” by trans women, instead of trying to figure out WHY they’re being called that.

          Cool. Let’s talk bout that. Unfortunately, there is no difference in the processes wherein a cishet man fetishizes vagina in his early experiences with it, and a similar guy who fetishizes transgender women. I get your problem. I share it to some degree. But I see it from a specific perspective which maybe you don’t: one that acknowledges it as a phase most of these men will pass through. Some won’t. But a lot of the reason why some won’t is because they don’t have the social “slack” to do so. IOW, they don’t feel free to be authentic, which would allow that phase to pass. Instead, they, like David and Michael (before encountering the Network) feel shame and embarrassment, and retreat into themselves. In that space, of course they are going to “act out” sometimes in unhealthy ways, in the same way an early-transitioning transwoman will act out unhealthily (as did Shannon one of my co-hosts). And before you criticize that comparison, I have evidence of the factual basis of it because I’ve spoken with a LOT of transwomen and many have shared similar process stories.

          The men who talk about (they aren’t whining, that’s your story) being called “chasers” are doing so because, up to now they haven’t had a place to “take back the narrative”. But they’re beginning to. You see, these men are realizing who and what they are. Hell, they are only just now figuring out what Michael and David and the 40 other guys I referred to earlier have: that it’s legit to love transwomen. That it’s legit to be transamorous. It’s not like being gay. And, that we need a place where us guys can talk about our experiences.

          It’s interesting that you call it “whining” because what is really going on is transwomen are being cishetphobic in not trying to understand what is really going on here. Instead, they are (stuck in their stories) unwittingly perpetuating their problems by complaining about it, rather than trying to do something productive….like at least thinking more deeply about it. All my work here is about getting to the “why” for the men, but also for the transwomen. For the transwomen are perpetuating the problem by focusing on it so much, labelling it, complaining about it themselves, and saying inane things like “all men who are attracted to transgender women are fetishizes or chasers”. That’s why I wrote this post and will continue to write posts like it. It’s time for transwomen to wake up and broaden their perspective.

          You write:

          In my experience, trans women tend to reserve that term for people who fetishize them, whereas cis people tend to call anyone involved with a trans woman – regardless of how they see said trans woman – a tranny chaser. Why complain to trans women instead of going after the cis people who perpetuate transphobia/stigmatize relationships with trans people?

          The interesting thing (and another reason for this post) is, if transwomen are tired of guys who fetishize them, they can eliminate that experience totally from their lives….paradoxically, by not focusing on it and by changing their story about it and the men they want to meet. That’s what the post was about. It wasn’t about “whining” to transwomen about anything. I personally don’t know any, or heard of any cis person call a trans attracted or transamorous man a tranny chaser. Their term in most cases, in my experience, is “gay”. But hey, I can respect your experience. It is yours after all.

          Finally, you ask why complain to trans women instead of going after cis people who perpetuate transphobia/stigmatize relationships with transpeople? Honestly, “same lesbian”, you’re coming into a conversation I started over a year ago by creating this blog and all our other online properties. The reason why I don’t “go after” who you think I should is because I am looking at the situation with a larger perspective. From there, I can see the best way to address this issue is to get men to own their transamory and in doing that, as Diana says, unleash a massive allied force for the transgender community. So far, I think we’re doing exceedingly well. And we’ve only just gotten started 🙂

          But at the same time, I’m also focusing on women who happen to be trans to let them know they can have a totally different life experience, as Remy, my co-host can attest to. She shared your view before encountering me. Now, in less than a year, she has not only turned her life around, she has met a cishet transamorous man who she is really hitting it off with. She’s also a vocal advocate of the Transamorous Network. If what we’re doing is so wrong, why are so many gravitating to it?

          Please let’s keep this conversation going. The more people who wade in with open minds, the more collective progress we make!

          Perry

          • Same Cis Lesbian says:

            Thank you for your reply, and I apologize for using the word “whining” to describe this article. I still have a point of contention with you, though. You explain, “unfortunately, there is no difference in the processes wherein a cishet man fetishizes vagina in his early experiences with it, and a similar guy who fetishizes transgender women.” You then state that you believe for many men, this is a “phase” they eventually pass through. The problem, though, is that men who fetishize trans women see them as objects, and this can lead to sexual violence against trans women, which is why I’m so passionate about this (my fiancée has been sexually assaulted numerous times, and several of the men who assaulted her did so because they saw her as some sort of fetish object that they could do anything they wanted to). I myself have been sexually assaulted by several men as well, several of whom because I previously identified as bisexual and they viewed bisexual women as inherently hypersexual/always wanting sex. Of course I don’t think all people who fetishize trans/queer women go around assaulting people, but fetishization can lead to violence against marginalized groups, and I don’t think that should be discounted.

            Also, I thought it was interesting you haven’t heard cis people throwing around the term tranny chaser, although as a cis het man, it makes sense that your experiences would differ from mine as a cis lesbian. I’ve only been called a tranny chaser by a trans person once, and that was by an abusive ex who wanted to make me feel bad because she was jealous I cared more about my fiancée than I did her (we were in a poly triad at the time), and she knew that would hurt my feelings, especially as someone who’s been involved with multiple trans people so she would try and use that against me. However, most people who’ve accused me of fetishizing trans women/called me a tranny chaser have been cis people who think that the only reason anyone would be into a trans woman is due to a fetish. No one’s accused me of being straight, but I’ve been told I’m “actually bisexual,” and although obviously there’s nothing wrong with being bisexual, those comments are upsetting because the people making them are claiming trans women are half male/half female, and that a lesbian could never be interested in trans women.

          • Perry Gruber says:

            Hey “Same” 🙂

            Thanks for this great reply. No need to apologize.

            I totally get your contention. Cishet men/men in general/people (trying to show overlapping circles here in text lol) can be jerks. Period. It is absolutely true and you’ll get 100% agreement from me that men do fetishize trans women, see them as objects, and that sometimes leads to not just sexual violence, but all kinds of violence. It’s also 100% true that men sometimes have the same view of cis women and act similarly. I wish I knew you better so I could chat with you about the second part of your first paragraph – your personal experiences and your fiancé’s too. But I don’t, so I’ll stay away from that part and just say I get it and appreciate how much that kind of treatment sucks. (being serious here…did I have to add this?)

            Since I am transamorous and trans supportive and trans active, I am moved to do something about what you point out in your first paragraph. Rather than seeing this as the tragedy it can be seen as (there are always multiple “right” perspectives), I instead choose to see it as a HUGE educational opportunity for all parties. Those opportunities are embodied in the Transamorous Network. Think about it “Same”: how many men can I reach with this all these great social media tools and generate responses like the ones I shared, responses which undoubtedly lead to a lessening of the violence you talk about? How many transgender people will benefit as a result in so many ways? It’s freaking thrilling to do this work if you ask me!

            As for “tranny chaser” on the lips of cis people: yeah. I think we (you and I) just have different lives and different experiences. No one in my social circles, or even in the valence surrounding that circle, has had anything other than respect for who I am and what I do. I have to reach back more than 30 years to remember a time someone called me “fag”. Again, it sucks to have people lash out – often from their own closet, or from their own pain – and harm another. That’s really all violence of any kind is: an aggressive pain expression. How all that directly or indirectly effects transpeople is equally sucky. But at least you’re doing your part, and I’m doing mine. That’s really all we can do. Isn’t it?

    • Oti Onum says:

      Thank u so much for this response ; everything I wanted to say back lol .. So I’m fierce black transwomen in the northwest and honestly this is all I get every day from cis heterosexual white dude or just guys in general finding a way any to rationalize there casual dehumanizing behavior to compel to have just enough empathy for them to utilize our bodies as AN EXPERIMENTATION; we are not products u can by and disregard like trash we deserve the uttmo LOVE and the utmost respect and if this article is implying that excepting an impartial experience of intimacy with men who arent courageous enough alone to have done the work it take to except themselves why should we be the ones to help WE HAD TO AND WHERE was my trans attracted man before my transition with someone else because I was in the beginning stages of my transition and his eyes were not cultivated to be able to see ME beyond my presentation ( a flamboyant gay boy who was cute lol ) ; do u see where I’m going with this .. My hope is u men do enough interpersonal work to be able to eventually be comfortable with yourself and others that make u uncomfortable because at the end of the day just like black and white couples where illegal and frowned upon cis-trans will be but people will never be able to deny it’s authentic and real unique and most of all special; my hope is one day u men will be able to see us before our transition that is the real work how can we challenge our programming enough to be able to nurture in more amiable and less guarded transwomen esp ones that are poor (like me); so here r a few questions to start that journey

      • Oti Onum says:

        Why are most transwomen unable to hold space for me to discuss my trans attraction? What research can I do beyond looking at pornhub ? During my journey how can I learn to be a more compassionate listener? Am I strong enough to to challenge my immediate environment enough via conversations to have more awareness and compassion for the women I love? Am I willing to interrupt any jokes and puns that use transwomen as the focal point? Am I capable enough to have the strength to distance myself from family and friends or colleagues that contribute to my fear and sense of disapproval with who I am and who I love ? in what ways have the people in my circle subversively lets me know that I will not be accepted as I really am ? have I done enough work on myself to even seek out a transwomen to eventually date or have casual sex with ? ..believe it or not these are the questions I had to ask myself before my transition.. do u see what I’m saying there are stages and if your trying to talk to a mature transwomen not girl about your experience u are not readily prepared to be the man of equal footing she deserves.. us transwomen settle and settle and we’re always settle and the saddest part is that we always will in some ways because we crave intimacy but we also crave A MAN not a boy on a journey of self discovery no cis woman ever has to put in as much work as we do to nuture and coddle these grown as dudes who want us to put in so much emotional labor just so that can maintain there reputations and dispose of us the minute they find a more attractive transwomen who willing to settle to.. and that is tragic … I guess with all that being said we’ll always be here in different stages and in different chapters try to find us in the beginning when we are asking this same questions as well and u will probably receive more help ; but remember most of us are not our best looking in the beginning like Bricks so why do u think u deserve us when we alchemise to Marble

        • Perry Gruber says:

          Your questions are valid ones Oti and I’m glad to hear you’ve asked similar versions to yourself during your transition. However, I would add a much more powerful question to your list, one you and trans attracted men need to ask: In what ways are the thoughts I’m thinking keeping me from having what I want?

          Complaining about how men are processing their own transition, only brings you into contact with those men you complain about. The men you think aren’t doing their transition right, meaning doing it the way you think they should, are doing it perfectly right. For them. And they are meeting women who are cooperating with them in that process even though the women themselves would claim they are not. Yes, there are stages. And some men are ready for the more advanced ones. Others are not and that’s ok. I’m going to beat this dead horse until it turns to dust: you can, at any point, Oti, have a relationship with a man at any of the stages that exist. Period. But when you say or write the following stories, it just shows that you’re not ready.

          …us transwomen settle and settle…

          …the saddest part is that we always will in some ways…

          …we crave intimacy but we also crave A MAN not a boy on a journey of self discovery…

          …no cis woman ever has to put in as much work as we do to nuture and coddle these grown as dudes who want us to put in so much emotional labor just so that can maintain there reputations and dispose of us the minute they find a more attractive transwomen who willing to settle to…

          While you hold these stories, there are:

          1. Transwomen who don’t settle and having a totally different experience than yours. Many of them are in long-term relationships. We have interviewed some of these women and more are signing up to be interviewed (for our podcast and YouTube channel)
          2. The only transwomen who “always will” settle are those who believe they have to, or those who refuse to look at their lives and how they are creating circumstances preventing them from having what they want while at the same time believing your next story about craving intimacy, which leads to…
          3. Yes we all want to have relationships that work. But “crave” is a strong story, one that puts you out of control of the process. And so long as you distinguish, again, between “men” and “boys” you will continue to know there are men out there and you will continue to experience only the boys. That’s just how it works.

          As for that last story, that is true in your perspective, but as in your first story, there are plenty of cis women who do exactly what you claim they don’t. As you know the world is a very big place, to say “no cis woman ever…” fails to represent any accurate aspect of life experience because of the general nature of the story itself. What it does accurately describe is the story you’re telling, a story that gives you some satisfaction (otherwise you wouldn’t tell it) but fails to give you what you really want.

          It’s clear to me you are a powerful woman. But you haven’t fully claimed your power. In a way you have, you’re just using it to get what you don’t want. And here we come to the main point of this article: transgender women can have exactly everything they want. But they have to stop telling stories that conflict with that. And one of the most powerful stories of them all, shared by many, many transwomen, is “all men are chasers.” The interesting thing is, the only transwomen who have that story are the ones repeating it over and over….while not in a relationship. The others, meanwhile are enjoying their men in relationship and paying no mind to the rest of you.

      • Perry Gruber says:

        Hey “Oti”. Thanks for your comment. I wonder if you might be a new reader? If so, please allow me to provide some context so I can address the wonderful statements you made. If you are NOT a new reader, then just skip this next paragraph.

        The content of The Transamorous Network is based on the concept of “stories”. Stories are the thoughts people have in response to observing the world around them, experiences they have (particularly painful ones), and desires they have. For example, when you write “…cis heterosexual white dude or just guys in general finding a way any to rationalize there casual dehumanizing behavior to compel to have just enough empathy for them to utilize our bodies as AN EXPERIMENTATION”, this is a story you’re telling yourself. It’s not good or bad, nor is it necessary accurate beyond your experience (I’ll explain that in a moment) it’s just a thought. But power comes from understanding these thoughts and the influence they have on your life-experience. That is what we focus on: helping BOTH transgender women AND trans attracted men GET EVERYTHING THEY WANT be telling better stories.

        Ok, let’s talk about your comments here.

        It is DEFINITELY true that men are experimenting. Just as you, probably, in the early stages of your transition, experimented with aspects of your trans-ness, what it meant, how you would negotiate life through it, etc. Now, you are a free human being. That means, you don’t have to have relationships with people who are in this stage (of experimentation). I get you may think you can’t avoid them, but I’m telling you you can. So when you DO have an experience with a guy in his early stages of trans attraction, you are there for a reason: your stories are bring you there and, whether you know it now or not, you stories about you, your life experience, and the relationships you want, are a perfect match with this guy’s stories. Now, when you call an encounter you might have with such a guy “casual dehumanizing” and an experience in which you’re treated like “disregarded..trash” I can’t possibly imagine that story you’re telling yourself feels good. It’s got to feel shitty. But that story is not what is really happening. I mean, it’s happening to YOU but only because you’re telling yourself that story. But the experience is NOT as you describe it.

        For example, I know Jen Richards (based on what she writes about her encounters) receives VALIDATION AND CONFIRMATION from the very same encounters you are calling “dehumanizing”. Her stories, and therefore her experiences are far different than yours even though the actual, physical experience is the same. I’m not saying you SHOULD experience them the way Jen does. What I’m saying is, you can have the experience you want, with the kind of guy you want, in the exact circumstances you want. But you must stop focusing on the negative experiences you have, because you’re just telling stories that bring you more of those experiences.

        I’m happy to read this statement in your comment: “if this article is implying that excepting an impartial experience of intimacy with men who arent courageous enough alone…” That you wrote it as conditional, using the words “IF” and “IMPLYING” allows an opening for further conversation. Thanks for that. Please re-read this part of your comment (if you don’t remember what you wrote) so the following will make sense.

        You (and transgender women in general) are not products to be disregarded….unless…you tell yourself stories (have thoughts) that create such experiences in your life experience. You DO deserve the love and respect you claim to want. But you can’t get it if you’re focusing on what you describe as dehumanizing experiences where you’re “disregarded like trash”. The article is not implying you should accept anything less than what you want. Quite the opposite: you can have EVERYTHING you want.

        But….

        The reason the men you are criticizing haven’t done their work “alone” isn’t because they aren’t courageous. The fact that they are experimenting indicates otherwise, even though you may not agree with that statement. But really Oti, did you do your transition work “alone”? Even if you think you have, you have benefited and are benefitting now from a rich number of resources, from individuals who have blazed the trail before you, and the resources available to you by resource providers (mental health professionals, doctors, articles examining experiences like yours etc.) even if your “poor” economic status makes some of these unavailable. Just knowing they are there is a huge support element. I’m not discounting the hard work you’ve put into your transition when I add that there currently are NO resources for these men that point accurately to what they are going through: except our material. And we’ve only been around 14 months! If you look at the literature, or the mental health field, those resources suggest there is something wrong with these men. Hell, the two counselors I saw early in my process asserted and tried to get me to agree that I was gay! That’s no help. And though there have been guys like Troy Kennedy, who have made some youtube videos about their transition over the years, they are extremely few in number.

        So where is a guy to go to do this work that you think they should do “alone”?

        Look, you don’t need to be the one to help. There are plenty of transwomen who are helping, and will help even if it is only through these encounters that you find distasteful. Again, if you find them distasteful then don’t have them. Despite what you said above, no one is compelling you to have them….except the stories you tell yourself.

        You ask: “where was my trans attracted man before my transition [?] with someone else because I was in the beginning stages….”

        Your trans attracted man wasn’t with someone else. That person was with the person who matched his stories. YOUR trans attracted man is waiting for you (if you haven’t already met him) and will greet you with open arms the moment you’re ready for him. That COULD have been pre-transition, but the fact that it wasn’t just indicates you weren’t ready for him. That’s all. It’s no big deal. You just weren’t ready.

        The Transamorous Network is here to offer men the opportunities you are saying they should take advantage of. There are men doing this work. And while you think experimenting is NOT doing the work, it actually is. I get you find the presence of work in that form distasteful. But again, you’re a free self-described powerful human being: You don’t have to have that experience in your life experience and you can still have love with the kind of guy you say you want.

        It’s interesting that you mention wanting men who can see the potential of transwomen before they transition. That’s asking a lot. And yet: I’m that kind of transamorous guy. But what I think you’re really wanting is financial assistance with your process, first and foremost. That’s fine, but again, we have to examine the stories behind the ask: There seems to be a story there that is keeping you from meeting a trans attracted guy who will help you with your transition. You can have all you want. All of it. But you have to tell yourself different stories Oti.

        Looking forward to reading your second installment.

  5. cdccscxcxcx says:

    I posted this on FB this morning and just going to paste it here, while not all of it is completely relevant to this post you get the idea.

    If the basis of the attraction is the genitalia, it is objectification.

    Here’s the thing:

    Women are not their genitalia. A woman is not a “chick with a dick,” and focusing on a trans woman’s genitalia, is in fact, denying her gender. Some trans women decide to alter their physical form. Some do not. Some would, except for extenuating circumstances (cost, surgical risks, social and family stigma, cultural or legal pressures). But all are women. Viewing them as anything else is a societal and cultural way of negating trans genders by normalizing the gender variance as a kink or a fetish; something less threatening to the established paradigm. But again, all are women.

    Let me say that last part again.

    ALL are women – regardless of what the physical shape of their genitals or what gender they were assigned at birth.

    When someone says they are attracted to trans women specifically, it sets off alarm bells in the minds of many trans people, myself included. One thing that resonates very clearly with us is being viewed as a sexual fetish, or being reduced to little more than a conveyance for a particular set of genitals, perhaps in a form that is exciting for it’s culturally taboo nature. No person wants to be distilled down to one or two traits they can not control and which don’t define the person they are. This is not dissimilar to singling out someone for their skin tone or their height. I think you would be hard pressed to find a person who is comfortable being romantically pursued for having red hair, regardless of who they are as a person. That person would probably have some very choice words.

    This is the essence of fetishizing and marginalizing a minority which serves as a form of cultural control on a group that is deemed amoral, sinful, unnatural, or otherwise counter to normalized social and cultural values and precepts.

    A trans woman IS – first and foremost – a woman. A trans man is a man. A non-binary person is neither fully man or woman, or is one or the other only transiently.

    If what you are seeking is physical pleasure from one with a penis, have you considered if you still have that desire when offered from a woman with a strap-on, or from a man? If what you find attractive are traditionally feminine features, are you also attracted to cis-women with very traditionally male feature or cis-men with very traditionally female features?

    Trans people come in all shapes and sizes and colors and physical configurations, just as any other group of people. So consider what it is that the attraction is really telling you. Is it telling you that you have an attraction to external genitalia? Is it telling you that you have an attraction to people despite their genitalia? Or is it telling you that you have an attraction to the forbidden nature of something that is perverted and twisted in the porn industry to play on fears and resentments toward a persecuted subset of our society?

    • Perry Gruber says:

      Thanks for this followup and for continuing the conversation. This is going to be long and detailed, but it is an important conversation so please bear with me.

      I think I understand what you’re saying. And it is a view many transwomen have. Yet this view focuses entirely on something you believe to be a man’s sole focus, while ignoring the possibility that the “focus” is a PHASE, a phase men eventually move through. IMO, the alarm bells you and other transwomen hear are not because you recognize a indelible fact about these men, it’s because you have a story about these men that makes it an indelible fact in your mind that they are focused on what you say they are. That’s what we at the network are trying to unpack for transgender women: their stories. While we help liberate men from their shame, embarrassment and all the other things they harbor which tells them they are abnormal because of their attraction.

      Your story that men are only wanting transgender women for the penis may be true in some cases. However, among the men I am aware of and interact with (far more than 40 now, including a trans man, including three men who are married to transwomen for some time now – 2yrs + each), these people (myself included) see transwomen as women.

      These men (from now on, please accept that this general term includes myself) are attracted to transwomen for a number of reasons. Initially it may be a certain attribute, but that is not always the case and when it is, it is not always the penis nor is it always a physical attribute! There are trans-attracted and transamorous men who are attracted to transwomen who don’t have penises. Some are, some don’t care. In the same way “[t]rans people come in all shapes and sizes, colors and configs” these men do too.

      But what I’ve noticed about this group of men is this aspect of them you are focusing on is not indelible. It is a PHASE; part of process through which these men come to their seeing these women as desirable and eventually seeing themselves as whole and normal. To use an analogy (and analogies are not 100% perfect) it’s the same way younger men interested in cis-women, focus on getting as much “pussy” as they can, after their first “taste” of it. They focus on that experience in their early interactions with cis-women, objectifying them while exploring the pleasures of that aspect of them. In time, however, these men come around to realizing the objects of their affection have feelings and brains and more. They begin to honor their womanhood and see them as potential partners. They have moved through phases.

      These men you and I are talking about, in their early stages may focus on specific aspects of their attraction, just as their cis-attracted counterparts do. But they don’t remain there.

      Now about strap-ons and pegging: I can only speak from my personal experience: But again, you are focusing too much on a physically pleasurable experience and ignoring the rest of the dimensions that make up the men, their desire and the process they go through. Yes, I have had three relationships with women who loved using strap-ons on me. Yes, I enjoyed that experience. I have also had experiences with men…early on. Yes, an aspect of these were enjoyable too. But the masculine nature of those experiences was a major turn off (and no wonder: I’m not gay). So these PROCESS STEPS lead me through to my discovery of transwomen (it was not porn, btw). But that experience and my ultimate attraction to transwomen was and is more than about what’s in their pants. However, and this is the aspect I think that triggers the story people like you (no offense) have: In the same way that some lesbians hate penises and some gay men hate vaginas, I have no interest in vaginas. I don’t like the look of them, I don’t like how they feel, and I certainly don’t want to interact with one as an expression of my sexuality. But I do LOVE the female form. There are many other aspects of the female form I am attracted to. But because I don’t like vaginas am I supposed to be a chaser because of the way I prefer (and enjoy) expressing my sexuality with my female partner, just because I prefer she have a penis, just because you say so? Really?

      And this is why one of the trans-active/supportive/amorous men I interact with weekly says we need to take back the male narrative from transgender women. Because the narrative you are telling (the story) is a flat, one dimensional view of a dynamic, multidimensional PROCESS of self-discovery, one that can be quite painful for these men. There is no way a transwoman can accurately tell what is going on in a trans-attracted man’s psyche because she isn’t one. Yet, she thinks she can tell the story of these men. To me that feels like a phobia, not unlike transphobia. A hatred of these men because of a flawed premise.

  6. cdccscxcxcx says:

    Chaser = Fetishization and auto-objectification of trans women. It’s really the difference between “I find you hot because you are trans.” vs. “I find you hot and you’re trans.”

    • Perry Gruber says:

      Good delineation. Isn’t “Chasing” a behavior though? And so using that term to describe people we really don’t know or understand what they’re going through can be stigmatizing, demeaning and shaming. No? Our point is using that word works the same way “tranny” does. The only difference is, as Jen Richards recently pointed out, describing men as “chasers” may be contributing to the violence perpetrated on transwomen by keeping such men in the closet….Seems to us using the term should go the same way as the “N” word: out of our lexicon. Don’t you think?

      And for some men – maybe more than we know – chasing behavior is one phase of a transitionary process to getting to “I find you hot and you’re trans.” So why vilify the process?

      • Remy Ilmatar says:

        I am a woman and I am trans. I know from first hand experience that when I was telling myself the story I had about the “chasers”. I believed they only wanted me for my pole or my hole… I was nothing but a body part and men all men are scum. And at this time all I was meeting and attracting were that exact type of man.

        But once I started rewriting and editing my stories about men, the type of men interested in me, the type and quality of men I’m looking for, the relationship I really want. And began to believe in these new stories the quality of experiences began getting better and better. The quality of men I began to meet started to rise and with it the feelings about myself began to rise. I have recently met a men that matches many many of the qualities I have written into my new stories.

        Since working with the Transamorous Network I have met many trans-attracted and transamorous men, and now more trans-supportive men… I have heard their stories from their mouths… We need to stop shaming these men. And have a better story about who and what you want in your life.

    • TCA says:

      It’s odd how few tranny chasers want anything to do with post-op women. Tranny Chasers just want to have sex with a penis. Being cowardly, they seek out trans women for exploitation. If they were truly honest they would just find a gay/bi male and have at it…

      • Perry Gruber says:

        Update your stories (and your knowledge) TCA. Your comment is chock full of stories which tell readers far more about you than they do about people you’re talking about.

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